Read the full transcript of Episode 39 of the NAIS New View EDU podcast, which features a conversation with NAIS President Donna Orem, who will be retiring in the summer of 2023. Donna joins host Tim Fish to share lessons learned during her 40 years in education, as well as a frank look at the challenges and opportunities ahead for independent school communities.
Tim Fish: You know, ever since the beginning of New View EDU, we've been so lucky to have Donna Orem, the president of NAIS, join us for several episodes. Well, today our focus is on Donna herself, on her experience, on her leadership, and on her lessons. Donna will retire as president of NAIS at the end of June, and before she goes, I wanted to make sure that we give our audience some more of her wisdom, so we can really continue to learn from Donna as the NAIS community has for 40 years.
Donna is president of NAIS and has served the association in other capacities since 1998. She's been working with the independent school community, though, for 40 years. Prior to joining NAIS, Donna served as the vice president for independent schools at CASE for 15 years. Donna, I am so excited to welcome you and only you for this conversation, back to New View EDU.
Donna Orem: Thanks, Tim. What a joy to be here and to have this conversation with you. I've been having conversations with you for such a long time, so it's only fitting that we should have this conversation together as I think about leaving.
Tim Fish: Well, Donna, as you think about it, our relationship began in 1998.
Donna Orem: Yeah.
Tim Fish: You were just starting at NAIS, and I was just starting in the independent school world. I had come out of working in Fairfax County Public Schools as a teacher and technology leader for many years, and I arrived in independent schools and three weeks into my journey at McDonogh School in Maryland, I was confused about independent schools. I didn't know how they worked. And I said to somebody, where can I go for some resources? Where can I go for help to understand this independent school community? And someone said, you ought to call NAIS.
And so on a Friday afternoon in the summer, it was probably like late July, I called the general number at NAIS, and who answered the phone, but you! And we began to have a conversation. I don't know, maybe I'm off, Donna, but I remember that conversation lasting an hour and a half, two hours. We were talking about learning and technology, and coming out of that, I remember driving home, and before that conversation began, I felt alone. I felt alone in my school. And as I was driving home that day, I knew two things were true. One, I was no longer alone. I had a friend outside of my school. And the independent school movement and the independent school community was bigger, far bigger, than my one school.
And so Donna, I just want to start off by saying thank you for answering that call from me. Thank you for answering that call hundreds of times since then. But more importantly, thank you for answering that call for our industry, for thousands of other school leaders who have been stuck, and they called NAIS, and they connected with you. And I'm curious, Donna, in all those calls you've had, which you probably have already had four or five this morning, I'm curious, what lessons have you learned in all of those calls? Lessons about you, and maybe even some lessons about our schools?
Donna Orem: Thanks, Tim. Oh gosh. It's been such a learning opportunity all these years. Well, I'll start off by closing the loop on our call. I think what I, the lesson I learned from that is that I wanted to hire you at NAIS. It took a very long time to convince you to come over, but—
Tim Fish:—One of the greatest gifts for me has been that, certainly, joining the team six years ago.
Donna Orem: Well, and for us, too. So it's been such a great opportunity. And you know, at that time I knew that you had such a gift for innovation and thinking about the future and pushing the envelope, and I knew that you could really help us as an organization and as a community to grow. But beyond that, I think, you know, from all of those calls, the older I get, the lesson that I've learned over and over and over again is the, the more knowledge I acquire, the more I understand how little I actually know. So every one of those—
Tim Fish:—I am with you on that.
Donna Orem: You know, every one of those conversations is like opening a new door. And I think you know, that's one of the greatest lessons and opportunities of my time at NAIS, is this opportunity to learn and to grow and to take this journey. So I, I think, you know, that is probably the biggest lesson learned.
And hand in glove with that, another lesson that I've learned is to be open to possibilities. I think very early in my career I was pretty sure that I knew the answer to certain things, and often would get very locked in those positions. And I think, you know, my years at NAIS and working with so many smart people, both within NAIS and outside the community is, there are lots of different shades of gray on almost every issue. And taking the time to listen to those perspectives has been just so rewarding. And it's reminded me that even though you might be very sure of your position and you might have a lot of facts associated with it, there's lots that you don't know.
So being open to those possibilities has just really been such a joy, too, because as I said before, I've learned so much because of that, and I think people have been so gracious in that learning as well, because God knows I've made some mistakes along the way.
Tim Fish: I think you're spot on on that, Donna, and it reminds me of like, one of the things they found when Google did a lot of research on what makes folks really successful at Google, they found that people had to be passionate about their ideas. They needed to be staunch advocates for what they thought and what they believed at the moment. And they had to be willing to change. They had to be willing to shift completely when they came across new information or a new way. And that's something I've always seen in you, this notion that you have, clearly, you have ideas, you have things you want to share, that you bring into the room. And you have this amazing ability to pivot when you're presented with new compelling information.
Donna Orem: Well, and that is what's so special about working in a community of learners and to be in a learning organization, because you have that opportunity. But I think another thing that I've learned from this is that there is a role that we each have to play in a learning community, and that is assuming good intent. Because it's very easy, particularly when you get into these conversations around highly charged issues, to assume that there are two sides or three sides to the issues. And people get pitted against one another.
And I have learned to step back and to say, you know what? Chances are we want to get to the same place, but we have a different way to get there. And that I have to stand back and not become so strident about my particular position. So I think that's something that I have learned through trial and error, through making mistakes. But you know, I do think it's the human condition to want good in this world, even though it's been, this, this last few years has been very difficult. I still believe that people want good in this world. I think they want good for each other, and you know, and I've had the delight in my 40 years working in the independent school community to feel that firsthand.
I just finished writing my column for the magazine on community and our editor said, why not be a little bit more personal about it? And it gave me the chance to reflect on how powerful this community is, and how much people belong and they matter to each other. And how special that is, to be able to work in a community where people matter to each other. Because otherwise this world can be a pretty lonely place.
Tim Fish: Yeah. You know, it, it's, it reminds me again, I, I reference the Matthew Barzun conversation all the time, where he talks about one of the powerful elements of a constellation is that you are seen and you're known in a community, and also that you're needed, and that you know you are needed, and you feel it. And I think you're right on that. I think this idea of these connections that our schools do, is we can really help our students and our community members feel that sense of being needed and valued in that community. I think we do. I think we do a remarkable job of that in our schools every day.
But one of the things that's always impressed me about you, and one of the things I hear people often mention when they mention you, is this idea of how much you read, and how much you understand what's going on out there. You have your finger on the pulse of trends.
I know personally that every time I get ready to send you an article, this little whisper goes on in the back of my head, like, yeah, Donna's already read this article. I don't even know why you're sending it to her. What tips do you have for school leaders who are trying to stay informed as well as you do?
Donna Orem: It's an interesting question. I think it starts with, I absolutely love to read, so I think just innately, it's what I enjoy doing. I do it first thing in the morning when I get up, I do it first thing in the evening when I go to bed. And I read a little bit of everything and it, you know, it goes back to something that I learned in college.
I mean, I've always loved to read, but when I was in college, I took this class called Escape Reading. And I'm going to be honest, at the time I took it because I thought it was going to be an easy class. And the way the class worked is you would go to the instructor, and at the front of the class you would negotiate your grade. And, and basically he would say, OK, if you want an A, this is how many books you're going to have to read. And he had this huge office that was just lined with books. Everywhere you turned, there were books. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them. So the deal was basically you would go into his office and take a book and you would read it. It seemed pretty straightforward.
You would read the book, you'd come to class, we'd talk about the individual books we were reading, because everybody was reading different things. Although at the time, I didn't realize the magic of that class. Because what he would do, would basically be to open your eyes to the power of reading a little bit of everything. So you'd walk into his office to choose a book, and he would go to the shelf and pull something off and say, I think you ought to read this book. And you'd look at it at first and say, nah, that's not the one that I would choose. And he would tell you why he felt that this book spoke to him as one that you needed.
And it was really through him that I found that reading could take many forms. And so I read fiction, non fiction, articles. I watch documentaries and you know, and sometimes I am called to things that I know nothing about and I pick them up for that reason. But I like to think about the power of teachers, and the power that this teacher had in my life back when I was 19 years old, and the power that he still wields over me today, whenever I pick up something to read. So I, I can hear him in my ear saying, well, you know, don't throw that away so quickly. There is something to be learned in that. So I, you know, at that point I just really learned to go on this journey of reading, and so I read articles and magazines, unfortunately, with the advances in the internet, there is so much to read.
Tim Fish: Yes, yes.
Donna Orem: That it's a, it's a little hard to pick and choose these days. And because I write so much about what I read, people send me, you know, articles and books and, and so I'm always so far behind. I have so much to choose from. But, you know, I think as I've traveled for NAIS, too, I've had so much time on planes. There was a time when I was on the road probably about 200 days a year. So, you know, that gave me an opportunity to read and read and read and read. And what I love about reading so much though, is making the connections. Because I will be in the middle of reading something on an airplane and I will get so excited and I'll think, oh my God, this really makes a connection between this and this, and this is how this is going to play out in our schools.
And I, I can't wait to come home and to try to pull the various pieces together. So it is really one of the passions of my life, and it's something that you know, when I'm lonely, keeps me feeling like I'm part of a community. So, and when I finally retire, people have sent me so many things I think I will be able to read for 20 years without buying anything new.
Tim Fish: Well, and you will keep up, I'm sure. And what I also love is your writing always connects it for all of us and helps us all see the core insights that are inside of what you're reading.
You know, Donna, I'm curious, right, of all that reading and all that writing and all that file storage, you I'm sure have really also seen some major changes in our society, in our schools. What have you noticed over 40 years? How have we changed as an industry, from where we were to where we are today?
Donna Orem: You know, it's such an interesting question because I think so much has changed, but there are things that have stayed the same. So let's talk about changes first. One is, I think, just the student population. When I first joined independent schools the problem was telling people no, that they couldn't enroll in schools. There were just so many kids. There were, during those early periods, double digit growth in the school age population. Schools were more affordable, too. That's something else.
Tim Fish: Did you notice that the ratio between sort of average income and tuition, we were much more affordable to middle income families?
Donna Orem: Absolutely. And, you know, and, and, and that's something we can talk a little bit about later in hopes and fears, but I hope we can find our way to being more affordable again, because I think there are all kinds of benefits to that.
But you know, the funny thing about that time is that I, I would say marketing was like a dirty word in the school community. That was something that, you know, somehow sleazy salesman did to sell products. And, you know, you didn't do that in education, so we didn't have marketing departments. We did not really engage in expensive advertising. If anything, you know, without doing much of anything, schools had long waiting lists and, you know, spent a lot of time trying to figure out how they were going to put a community together in many different ways, and that has really changed a lot, particularly since the Great Recession. And I think it is, you know, really changed in so many ways for so many different types of schools.
Elementary schools have really struggled and, you know, in, in, in many ways I look at our schools and think about how important those early years are, and the great work our schools do and, and how young families really struggle to afford independent schools at that age. And so, you know, I think many of our high schools have continued to do quite well, but schools in those early years have struggled. And when I first got into independent schools, people really wanted to get in early on. I mean, they really fought for those places in pre-K or kindergarten because they thought it would lock them in through high school. So that has really changed a lot. And I think, you know, the cost, it's changed and has been driven by many factors.
One of course is building. You know, I think when I was first involved with independent schools, you know, schools were small, you didn't think about them having campuses and, you know, all of these buildings. We also grew our staff. We started looking at various kinds of specializations, from counselors to learning specialists, and these were all needed. But I think, you know, before that, families often engaged these services independently of school. So you didn't think of a school just being one stop shopping for all of your needs for your child. And, and so, you know, they really drove up the costs. And you know, here we are today, I think, you know, with schools so outpacing cost of living. And that's becoming even more apparent as inflation rises. I think young people have taken on so much debt from colleges. That's, you know, it wasn't just our sector, higher education rose as well. So this certainly dates me, but when I went to college, and I went to a small private college, tuition my first year was $3,000 a year. Can you believe that?
Tim Fish: I remember for me, Donna, and I was a few years later, but it was like eight or 9,000.
Donna Orem: It was so affordable. So I mean, even if you had to take out student loans, it really was not that much money and you know, you were able to pay it off in your first few years of working. So, you know, now we have schools getting really expensive. We have kids coming out of college with unimaginable student debt. I mean, you know, 90,000, 100,000 dollars. You know, if they went on to graduate education or medical or dental school or at some kind of professional school, even more money. So, and then the cost of everything else has just skyrocketed as well. So, you know, I, I think we're at an inflection point where families look at their disposable income and say, what can I afford to do?
And in fact, you know, a moment that I will never forget, when I was serving on an independent school board, and tuition went up and up because the costs of everything for the school were going up and up, and it was not particularly a school that had done a lot of building, but in order to stay up with what was being offered by other independent schools in the area, they were making other kinds of investments.Technology is another area that really drove up costs.
But I remember at some point a family writing a letter to the head of school saying, you know, we've had two children at this school and they have thrived, but we've come to the point where we can no longer afford the tuition. We really struggled for so many years and we finally had to step back and say, you know, we were both working two jobs. We were always stressed out. And were the people that we were being at home with our kids because of the stress and anxiety of trying to put these dollars together to afford our house and food and education. You know, was it creating something at home that we did not want? There was so much stress, we were not seeing our kids, that we unfortunately had to come to the conclusion that we couldn't afford this education anymore.
I will never forget that letter. That was the most painful letter. And it was just so symptomatic, I think, of what families were feeling. So I hope we can get beyond that one day so that, you know, when a family has that experience, they are not forced to make that impossibly hard decision.
Tim Fish: That's right.
Donna Orem: So, and you know, the other thing I, I don't want to forget to add in terms of the changes I have seen, is in diversity. When I first went to CASE, I have to, I was working with the advancement community. It was mostly white men. Most of the fundraisers were white men. Communications. The, that whole area was really more one of publications, and that's where you would find women. Alumni relations also was dominated by men. And in my 40 years that has changed. Diversity has increased in schools in every way. I think in race, ethnicity, age, religion, gender identity. We are so much more diverse in both the student and the adult population than we were 40 years ago.
So those are just some of the changes that I've seen. I think, you know, I've certainly seen changes in governance as well. And also in parent attitudes. I, you know, I don't know, when you were a kid, you're a few years younger than me. I, I don't know that my parents even were involved in where I was going to college.
Tim Fish: Yeah, mine barely, I mean, barely involved with it.
Donna Orem: It was, you know, I did all of the research. I worked with my counselors. And you know, they were like, go for it, you know? See where you get in!
Tim Fish: Well, you know, it's funny, Donna, I, I don't think my parents were very involved in like a lot of aspects of my life. I think about, on Saturday mornings you would just get up and you would do, in my house you would do some chores and then you just left. And they didn't ever plan what I was going to be doing or think about what was going on. I might have had a soccer game, you know, we played rec soccer a little bit, but other than that, we just kind of were out in the woods—
Donna Orem: —Me too.
Tim Fish: Doing stuff.
Donna Orem: Me too.
Tim Fish: And I think about how different that is today. Right. And the relationship—
Donna Orem: —Oh my God.
Tim Fish: You know, I, I think you're absolutely right on the impact that we're having on, on families is, is quite incredible.
And that's one of my favorite things when I visit schools, to just see what we're doing every day. And yet across the industry, I know that there continues to be, rightfully so, a conversation about how are we going to, how are we going to really create a model where we can allow the most number of families possible to have access to our schools.
I think that is the existential challenge that's facing our schools. And I think it's one that I know you've worked a lot on and the one that we still have to really continue to work toward.
Donna Orem: Absolutely. Yeah, we have to figure out that business model. I do think one of the answers to that is collaboration. I, I think, you know, our independence is at the very heart of who we are, and I, it's at the very heart of our being able to do the work that we do in service of an individual child. You know, we're able to, to push the envelope.
But I think, you know, going it alone is harder in this world. So I think a lot of our solutions are going to be found in collaborating with one another and finding some of these economies of scale and, you know, doing things a little bit differently. And I do think we are on a more positive path than we've been on in a long time. And you know, the pandemic, for all of its horror and, and God knows, incredible horror. I think, you know, not only did we lose way too many people, I think everybody was touched by that in some fashion. But the mental health challenges in both the adult and the child community. Huge. And we probably only are at the beginning of really understanding that.
But, you know, a good crisis really brings us together like nothing else. And I think, you know, we found our way back to each other in the pandemic. We leaned on each other, we learned from each other. We were there for each other. And you know, I do hope that we don't lose that when, you know, we start getting back to just status quo, which I hope we don't go back to.
Tim Fish: I think you're so right. You know, Donna, I call it, I've often said this to you, I think, I call it the other I, right? So the independence of our schools I think is so important. And I think as, as you said, during the pandemic, we also discovered our interdependence.
Donna Orem: Absolutely.
Tim Fish: And I think we need to continue to live into that interdependence.
We are a community of schools that are different and independent from each other and connected to each other. And there is so much in opportunity, I think, in really leveraging our interdependence even more. You know, I know Donna as a, as a, someone who's been in school leadership for a long time, as I look back on my last 25 years since you and I first met, there are absolutely been some amazingly great days, and there have been some incredibly hard days.
Donna Orem: Absolutely.
Tim Fish: I'm wondering, just kind of a crazy question, Donna's best days and worst days over the last 25 years that you've been with NAIS, or within the 40 years that you've been working in our schools?
Donna Orem: Well, you know, one would think that that would be a hard question. You know, like, let me think of those good and bad days. But you know, there are sort of two opposites that really spring to mind. Best days are when I am with both the staff and our community at conferences and institutes. No question about it. There is nothing like going to a conference and hugging people. There's just nothing like it on this earth. Seeing people that you haven't seen for a while and you, you know not too long ago we had our People of Color Conference that we hadn't been able to hold live for three years. Oh my God. It was, you could just feel people being given life again. You know, and, and not only the community, but I think we as a staff are at our best when we are at conferences because we forget about our different jobs and we come together to support each other.
You know, you sit around the staff office, as you well know, during one of the conferences, and what you hear is, how can I help now? I have time to do that. You know, let me help you do it. Whether it's like putting out signs or you know, assisting with a speaker. And we've all had these crisis moments at conferences. I, I will still recall I had, my job one year was to escort speakers and I escorted this speaker who just began speaking and she just crumpled to the ground. She fainted.
Tim Fish: Oh my. I think I was in the room for that one, Donna.
Donna Orem: Yes. Yeah.
Tim Fish: I was a participant and I was in the room for that one.
Donna Orem: Yeah, that was quite memorable, but staff members came from everywhere to help. And so it was because we worked together that we were able to get her to a safe space, make sure she was OK, and she didn't go on, but, but you know, everybody in the room too rushed to help.
And you know, those are the things that happened at conferences. And I think, you know, what it brings out is that we really matter to each other. And it's in good times and bad, and I think that's what I've loved about working at NAIS, is that we matter to each other.
You know, no question about it. Those are the good days. The other smaller good days are at the institutes and particularly for all the years that I've worked at NAIS, I love going to Emory Conference Center for the Institute for New Heads.
Tim Fish: That’s a high point for me every year.
Donna Orem: Ah, isn't it great? And my favorite part is the meals together with new heads of school. And you know, as they tell their stories and their journeys, oh my God, those are just precious days where you really start to begin those relationships. You know, which often last an entire career. I mean, I know, I know some heads that I first met in my days at CASE of, you know, are still friends today. So it is, it's definitely good days are days of social connection. They're days around people. They're days around relationships. Those are the best days.
Tim Fish: Mm-hmm.
Donna Orem: And so not surprising, absolute worst days, school shootings.
Absolute worst days. That's just unimaginable in so many ways. I mean, obviously, you know, they've been around for decades. We just passed the 10 year mark for Sandy Hook, and that one I will remember more than any other. It was a December and you know, people were getting ready for the holidays and we got that news and, you know, I don't think there was a dry eye at NAIS.
People were in each other's office. I can still remember it, sobbing. It, you know, it's just, you just wonder how we get to this point. And sadly, you know, since that day we have seen so many more school shootings. The one at Uvalde this year, again, unimaginable. You know, how we get beyond that as a country, certainly there, I think there are certain things that we have to get real about, but. If the best days are about community, the worst days are about the end of community and, and school shootings are, you know, not only do they take the lives of so many people, but you know, what they do to those that survive lives on very long.
In fact, the Washington Post, marking the 10-year Sandy Hook mark, conducted interviews with people who had been touched by school shootings, whether they be survivors, parents, teachers, and, you know, no matter how long ago the school shooting was, it, it's, it's marked their life in ways that they can never erase. I just think those are the, the worst days, not only for me, but I think really for everybody. Those are awful days.
Tim Fish: Those are awful days and I, I agree with you, and for many of them, I was in a school community when they took place, and I, I think…With you completely about the, the two jobs that you have at that moment. One is to ensure that you are taking care of the community and that you are ensuring the safety of your community. I remember on 9-11, being in a school community, and really thinking about what was taking place and how we would take care of young people and take care of the staff. And yet at the same time, inside, your heart breaks, your heart breaks for our world and where we are. And I love your notion that our best days are when our community is thriving and flourishing, and our worst days are when our community is broken apart. And I, I think you are, I will always hold onto that and think you're completely right in your assessment.
You know, I'm curious, Donna. You know, there's, I've learned so many lessons about NAIS since I've been here. I knew a lot about NAIS and always admired the work that NAIS did prior to joining as an employee.
But I've learned a whole lot more in these six years, six years of being with the organization, and I've learned a lot about what we provide to our members. And there's so much, there is so much that NAIS creates for our members, whether it be data or tools or research or thought leadership or convening events like you talked about, with the conferences and the institutes and many other things.
What I'm curious though is, when NAIS, when you really boil it down, what is it that we do really well? What's at the heart of what NAIS is about, in your perspective?
Donna Orem: Well, you know, when you boil it down, NAIS is a membership association. That's who we are. We are an association of people. And so at its heart, this organization is about people and the relationships between those people. Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think we could just have relationships and not—
Tim Fish:—That would be a lot of fun. If we just ran around and had relationships all the time.
Donna Orem: Absolutely. But I think it starts with the relationship and through that relationship you start to understand what people in school communities need to thrive. And that's, I think, how we have always developed our programs and services, is understanding the journey of those individuals and what they need to help them thrive during that journey, to, you know, if they choose to do so, to advance in a leadership position during that journey. But it starts with a relationship.
Don't get me wrong, you know, one of our signature suits is research, and I love research. It's always been one of my favorite areas of NAIS. And I think the organization conducts awesome research, you know, but research also is just a starting point. And, you know, the, the research is incredibly helpful, but without the relationships and actually talking to people and saying, well, how does this play out at your school? Or, or, tell me in your own personal life, how has this played out at your school, within your community? You learn so much more, and I think, you know, when we are at our worst is when we get too removed from people.
And, you know, there's no question it's been harder as the organization has gotten bigger and bigger. And you know, we are about at 2,000 schools right now and the diversity of the membership has changed greatly over the years. So, you know, we not only have boarding schools and day schools and schools of different size and schools that serve different divisions, but you know, schools that have very different missions and visions about their future.
And they're also at different stages of health and well-being. And so I think balancing all those relationships has become our biggest challenge as an organization. And, you know, how do you ensure that you see that diversity, you recognize that diversity, and you develop programs and services to meet leaders where they are? Because you know, that one size fits all just does not work anymore. I don't know that it ever did. Being a short woman, I used to always think that that one size fits all was never a very good concept.
Tim Fish: Well, it reminds me of that, I don't know what book it was from, some book I was reading where they talked about when they were trying to design how to create a seat for a commercial airliner, for the pilot. And so they took, at that time it was all men. They were doing the measurements of men. You know, so they looked at averages, across, average length of leg, average length of torso, average width of, of waist, or size of waist, et cetera, and they, blah, blah, blah. And they created a seat that would fit the average man, right? And literally it was man. And what they found is, it fit no one. The seat, the seat didn't work for anybody. Right. And I think when we, when we try to speak to the average, when we try to speak, we, we need to figure out, and have, I think, to speak to the individual schools.
And I know one way to do it is through what we talked about at the beginning of this conversation, answering the call, right. Being there to answer the phone when somebody calls. It's not the most efficient method necessarily, but it is, it is what we are called to do at NAIS I think, is to answer that phone and figure out ways to do it.
You know, it also makes me think about sort of how we can think about our schools and what our schools do. And one of the things I used to always say when I was in a school was, I felt like we as a community intentionally designed the experience so that we would, what I called, climb into the messiness of kids' lives. That's just what we did as an organization. It was way more, we were about the individual student more than we were about the curriculum, and we were about meeting that student where they were and trying to help that student in whatever way we needed to, to make progress. And I think that's something for me, that's always been the secret sauce of our schools. It's the one thing that I find that's consistent. When I walk up and down hallways in schools all over the place, that's what I see. I see schools that are committed to making a difference for young people one student at a time.
I'm curious, what would you add to that description about the secret sauce of our schools, from all the hundreds and thousands of schools you've been into, you've been inside of and walked up and down those hallways. What do you think makes our secret sauce as independent schools?
Donna Orem: You know, I would agree. I think it's, it's that polarity between individual and community. I think, you know, there, there used to be that old saying that if you went to, you sent your child to an independent school, that child would be known. And loved. That—I don't know that we've always delivered on that a hundred percent. I think it's something that we work very hard at, but you know, sometimes kids fall through the cracks, but that's a rare occasion, I think, at an independent school. I think that, you know, we recognize that individual. But we also know that learning, at its very core, is a social activity. It's not an individual activity. I know often people like to think it is, but most of the research will say we learn by being with others. And so it is, the other side of that tension is celebrating the individual, but doing it in community. And I think we do community really well.
I think that we help kids understand that they belong and they matter. We work at finding places that kids can feel community within a school because, you know, kids feel community in, in very different ways. And I know myself, as I was writing this column about community, I went to an independent school in high school, and my first experience of it was large and overwhelming. But thanks to the adults in the community, I found my way and I found my connections through theater. I was in a theater group my four years in high school, and that was my main community. And it really, whenever, you know, school got too hard or I was feeling isolated, it was there that I could go to feel that I mattered, that I felt that people had my back. And I think our schools work very hard to figure that out.
So I think community and connection is what we do well, and I think, you know, if you talk to people who went to independent schools, they still have a lot of those connections today. And often, you know, it's through those connections that they meet other people. In some cases it might be a spouse or a partner. A door is open to a job or some other kind of opportunity. So you know, I, I see it all together as individual, our independence that allows us to focus on the individual in, within though, a community where you belong and matter, opening the doors to these connections that are, are lifelong and stay with you your entire life.
You know, and, and along the way I think we do a pretty great job with education.
Tim Fish: I think you're, I think you're right. I think we can always do better. You know, I think that that is, I think we're learning a lot about what great learning design looks like, and a lot of this podcast has been about that. And I think certainly conversations we'll have, but you're right. I think at the end of the day, we, we all, I think we assume the best intent. I think that's the other piece that you talked—
Donna Orem: We do. I—
Tim Fish:—about earlier. I think that we assume where our families and our students are coming from and our staff are coming from is the right place, and I think that is something also that makes our communities so, so strong and so impactful.
You know, as we look out to the future, I'm wondering what hopes you have for our schools and for NAIS going forward.
Donna Orem: Oh boy. You know, it hasn't sunk in yet, I think, that I'm going to be leaving in a few months. I, maybe it won't until I pack that last book in my office and walk out the door. So this community has been, you know, my life for 40 years. So. I do have so many hopes. One I've already touched on, and that's collaboration. I hope we never lose that. And again, it's that polarity between independence, because all of our schools have their own vision and mission, which is great because it creates this, you know, opportunity within the US education system that any child can find a school that is the right fit for that child. And I, you know, and, and that independence and that ability to have that singular vision or value proposition is really the hallmark of our school.
So I, we can never lose that. But I think we need the power of collaboration to extend that. You know, whether it be looking at how we network some of our schools together so that we stay as individuals, but we say, how by working together in infrastructure issues or in fundraising for larger causes, might we be able to do so much more?
I also hope we keep pushing the envelope. We are uniquely positioned to do that as an industry. I think, you know, it's one of the huge benefits that, you know, obviously we have a governing board and we partner with that governing board, but we can't lose sight of the fact that the world around us changes. Students' needs change. What our kids will need to do to create a better future, continually changes. And we have to get ahead of that. We have to be ahead of that change. And so I hope we continue to push that envelope even in ways where it's rough. And I think we've seen that recently. A lot of our schools are pushing through a lot of tension because they know it's important.
You talked about messy. You know, I like to think we're in the messy middle of change right now. And as Brene Brown says, that's really when all the magic happens, even though it's really hard. And so I think we have to keep pushing. When we push through, you know, we make breakthroughs not only for our kids, but for our communities and for the world around us.
You know, it reminds me that that's why we have our vision, that through the diversity, independence, and innovation of our schools, that we create a more equitable society, because it's within that society that more and more children have the potential to succeed. I mean, every kid is born that way. Circumstances then start to cut back on that opportunity to reach their full potential. So I think that's my other hope, that through this collaboration we find ways that we can educate so many more students. And, you know, some of our schools are already going down that path and have taken that journey where they, they start to think, you know, we spend so much time and effort perfecting this particular value proposition. But we only affect 300 kids. What is keeping us from affecting 3,000 kids?
And also I hope that we can get beyond the polarization of today. I think, you know, that's my biggest fear, that that will tear us apart. Not only as a school community, but as a society. And I think, again, I believe, and I'll go back to where we started, I believe in the goodness of people. I believe that we need to step back and assume good intent. So my other hope is that people will step back and assume good intent of the teachers and the staff who run our incredible schools. Because they've made this choice. Because at the end of the day they care about kids. They care about the future of this world, and they've chosen education because we know over and over and over again, education is the thing that changes people's lives. It's the difference in people's lives. And so I hope that we can get beyond that and give each other that space, and assume that we're in it for the right reasons, and I definitely believe that that's true of our community.
Tim Fish: Donna. What a fitting way to end this conversation. You know, I just, I just want to say thank you again for not only spending another hour with us on this podcast, but thank you in a much, much larger way for the 40 years that you have given to our industry. To the thousands of school leaders that you have impacted and helped and shepherded along their journey.
But also personally, I'm a guy who called you 25 years ago who needed help. I was stuck and you got me unstuck. And I just want to also say thank you for that. For the number of times throughout my career, over that 25 years, I've found myself stuck many times. And you've always been the first person that I've called when I've been in that situation, to help me make progress, to help me, and to help my school get unstuck.
And I just want to say thank you for that. Thank you for your insights. You are always welcome on New View EDU. We would love to have you back anytime. And of course, we always want to keep track of what is on Donna's list. What are you reading? What are you gathering insights from, and who are you talking to?
Because I think next to Oprah, you're one of the, one of the truly influential people in our world. So I'll do it, I'll equate you to Oprah in the independent school world and, and do it proudly. So, Donna, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for everything you've given to our schools and thank you certainly for everything you've given to the New View EDU Podcast.
We are grateful for having had the time with you.
Donna Orem: Well, thank you, Tim. I mean, you know, the, the little secret in here is I'm the one that should be saying thank you to you, to the rest of the team at NAIS, and to this wonderful community, because I am taking with me, I think, so much more than I have given. I feel, as I leave NAIS, that I am the richest person in the world because of the wonderful relationships that I have formed.
So gosh, what an opportunity. I will never forget these 40 years. They have been magic. So thank you.