Read the full transcript of Episode 70 of the NAIS New View EDU podcast, which features health educator Shafia Zaloom joining NAIS President Debra P. Wilson to discuss the role schools play in helping students develop interpersonal skills and helping them navigate questions, big and small, about relating to others in a healthy, balanced way.
Debra Wilson: I am particularly excited today. We have Shafia Zaloom coming on with us. Shafia is a health educator, consultant, and author. She has such a long history of working with thousands of students and their families in public, independent, and parochial schools over her thirty years in education. In my time getting to know Shafia, we have spoken a lot about the roles schools play in partnering with parents to support the healthy development of students.
We know through so many different data points that at least some of our students are really struggling these days, and how we think about bringing students along so that they’re in a really healthy place as they move on to the next era of their education, but also as they become adults, and what they understand about being healthy humans is a big part of what we do. And I’m just looking forward to this conversation with Shafia and her insights. So let’s get this conversation started.
Shafia, it is so good to be with you today to have this conversation. Welcome to New View EDU.
Shafia Zaloom: Thank you! Thank you for having me.
Debra Wilson: I want to start actually with a question I have never asked you in the time that I've known you, which is like, tell me a little bit about the journey that took you to doing what you do today.
Shafia Zaloom: Interestingly enough, I was a social worker originally when I first got out of school. I was social working. I worked in a residential treatment facility for youth. They were dual, triple diagnosed teenagers who were in residential treatment for drug addiction as an alternative to incarceration. So it was a pretty intense first job for me.
And I really came to love these kids so much in working with them. And not only had they caused harm, but they had also experienced harm. And as I continued to work with them and deeply care about how they were doing, what their histories were, how they were healing and moving forward, I felt like I needed to get into preventative work versus interventive work. And in my own life, school and relationships had really provided so much and was so meaningful to me. And so, when I thought about prevention and the young people I was working with, it became really clear that it was school and their relationships that had in some ways failed them.
And so that pointed towards me really wanting to get into preventative work in schools, relationships, health education was it.
And I happened to, at a school called Marin Academy, which is in the Bay area, hear from a high school friend that I had that they were hiring for a health education teacher to create a program that was, you know, not the Mean Girls scene where the gym teacher’s talking about chlamydia and whatever else, but rather, you know, psychoeducational, psychodynamic, like the real issues that kids are wrestling with. That was more of an organic process in terms of what they felt they needed and they wanted. And that was it. That's what started it and launched my career in education. That was in the early to mid 90s actually, so a long time ago, about 30 years ago.
Debra Wilson: Wow, that's awesome. So like, now projecting forward, right? 30 years. Why do you feel like this work is so critical to students right now? Like what is this moment, you know, as you're working with kids and you're working with schools and you're working with parents, you know, how has that shifted a little bit over time and like what seems so critical with kids right now?
Shafia Zaloom: I think relationships. I think how they connect, how they communicate with each other. I think understanding and knowing what it looks, sounds, and feels like to be in an authentic relationship with people. I mean, we all know as educators how important social connectedness is, right? To a young person's overall wellbeing, to all of our wellbeing, right? But certainly for them to be able to thrive. And if there's one thing I focus on throughout my work and have, you know, across the decades, is our relationships.
So whether it's our relationship with our body or our relationship with substances or relationship with each other or community, our families, you know, all those things, romantic relationships, sexual relationships, that has been the thread and the focus. And I think that as, you know, socially we've evolved or devolved, depending on what we're talking about for young people in particular, they need more guidance. More than ever, especially with the increase of sort of the digital world and its prevalence in their lives, you know, they're just inundated with this onslaught of information. They're sort of drowning in it. And so they're starving for guidance and to understand what real connection is, and sort of all the things that make us deeply human that they think they're understanding and connecting on, but they actually aren't. So I think that's the most important piece.
Debra Wilson: So, and you must get asked this all the time, right? The Anxious Generation is obviously a big book that a lot of people have been reading and talking about and taking cell phones out of schools and all those kinds of things. And, you know, I was speaking to a freshman in high school the other day, and they were telling me how awkward it was to walk down the hallway now that they can't use their cellphones in schools. And that really struck me, because we didn't have anything else to look at when I was in middle school or high school. So tell me, what are your thoughts on just that digital connection space that kids are living in, and how it affects the way they interact with each other, particularly in person?
Shafia Zaloom: Oh, I have so many thoughts on this. And it's interesting, because if there is something, you know, when I get interviewed for different media, whatever, a lot of times people will say, so you've been doing this for a long time. What's the thing that you've seen that's changed this generation or changed this, how this, what this means for us the most? Right. And I would say digital spaces, I would say access.
But also, you know, when I wrote my first book, I had this student who's, I had a review crew for my book, and it was about 15, 12 to 22 year olds. And they read everything before it went to the publisher. And this one student in particular, she said, and she had been a TA in my class. And she said, you know, Shafia, everyone talks about teen culture and teenagers. She's like, we're really just showing you adult culture through our eyes. And she said, we're navigating this gauntlet to adulthood. And we're trying on all the different things that adults are modeling for us.
And so a lot of times adults, you know, they just, they don't necessarily teach us or ask us in a way that feels relevant to us. So then we just make our way and try and figure it out. And because we don't get guidance from them that feels like we can, you know, engage with, and that feels real and relevant to us. And so we're left in this situation, then, where we have to fend for ourselves, interpret, make assumptions, do all the things. And that isn't always in our best interest. And then we get to a point where it's not going well, and then the adults just want to shut it all down. And yet again, they're not giving us the guidance, the information, the ways that we can talk about this so that it will, we’ll learn from it and it will be meaningful for us.
And she'll say too, and the other part of it is there's so much hypocrisy that surrounds it, because adults are notorious. And of course, these are big generalizations. This isn't everyone, of course. Is that, you know, adults are very much sort of do as I say and not as I do, especially when it comes to technology.
That's my little preamble because I just think it's an important frame. And I eat Humble Pie every day. Like before I even just got on with you, I was teaching a class called Sexuality and Media. And I had shown bits of a docu-series about social media and young people and you know, what they thought about it in particular and what they think about everything that's happening with the anxious generation and Gen Z and, you know, all the issues. And they said, it feels like adults are always making their own interpretation and no one's really listening to the kids.
And it's not going anywhere because we've gotten to a place and in many ways the adults have let it go this far, and that we've gotten to this place now where it's not going away. And so they should be teaching us about how to actually manage it. So we are filters, not sponges, which is something we use where I teach, sort of our mantra, so that we can use it responsibly. So we can use it as a tool, so that we understand and have a critical consciousness around the messages. And they said, now when you just shut it down, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel like we're in it together. It feels like you're just trying to deprive us of something without having taught us what to do now that it's going away.
And I think that's really true. And so when it comes to these devices and my thought, I really do think regulation absolutely is important, right? Like with all things. How do we...How do we practice? How do we learn about, how do we gain the skills? How do we practice them and cultivate capacities to self-regulate, to modify, right? And to do things in moderation.
And how to understand the impact of this on our capacity to actually connect with others and have healthy, sustained, intimate relationships in real life, which is a big developmental task for them. And how to be a filter, not a sponge, how to control the algorithm before it controls you, right?
Like this is my new thing. This is actually sort of the most recent thing I've come to in all my conversations with kiddos. It's like, OK, so you feel empowered by the currency of your attention. So let's talk about how you're spending it, right? Let's talk about the budget. Let's talk about it in ways that will serve you, so that you aren't just passively internalizing these things, but rather really being a critical consumer. That's sort of where I am now, and the conversations I've been having with a lot of teenagers lately.
Debra Wilson: So do those tend to be high school students? It strikes me that you're helping them understand their own agency and exercise their own…I love that idea of they have their account, they have their attention real estate. We all have that attention real estate, and you can play with your own algorithm on all these different media sources.
But if you're talking with middle schoolers about that, like how would that shift? How do you introduce kids to that concept of, you know, kind of developing that agency? Or if you could talk to parents, you know, who are giving kids their first cell phones, right? Seventh, eighth grade. Knowing, seeing what you see now, how would you talk with those kids or encourage parents to engage with their kids around, you know, those early days, particularly with a cell phone where they can text each other. I mean, I know all that happens on iPads and computers too, but it just seems like the cell phone is still the gateway to a lot of that kind of automatic connection.
Shafia Zaloom: Yeah, I mean, again, it's sort of that instant gratification, right? Like in terms of feeling like you're so connected when actually you may not be. It depends on what kind of connection we're actually talking about, right? So I think always, you know, middle schoolers, and here's the thing just to say, kids are getting cell phones younger and younger.
Debra Wilson: It's super young, I know.
Shafia Zaloom: It's staggering to me how young kids are getting, even my own kid, right? Like, one of the three, was running this summer program at the YMCA for kindergarten through second graders. And he texted me like panicked. He's like, Mom, they all have phones and they all have TikTok, and they're watching it together, like, how is this possible? How is this happening? He was so concerned. And he said, I don't think they have filters, you know, and you know, kids always can find a hack, you know, all the things.
And so, we'll talk about middle school, yes, but I just want to recognize that kids are getting this younger and younger and given their development, their developing brains, what they're supposed to be doing, I do have some concerns. And I understand the safety piece, but that's a whole other conversation because what's your definition of safety, right?
So when it comes to middle schoolers, because they're such concrete thinkers, I think it's so important to include…You know, we've become so morally neutral in a lot of what we teach and the values that we actually educate kids on and how we point to community values. And I feel like phone use is such an individual thing, right?
And so helping, you know, while we are educating about phone use and how to use it as a tool and how to be a filter, not a sponge and sort of scaffolding for them over time how they can earn more privilege and more access when it comes to their phones, right? Like I think that's a really important piece, but also contextualizing sort of what we're talking to them about in ways that they can relate to.
So how can we give them things to anchor themselves to, to think about in concrete ways? Now granted, it's always going to be a cold cognitive context, right? But we know with all skills and drills, it's really important that we go through these with kids so that we do our best to encourage their sort of muscle memory around, you know, the critical thinking skills, the choices they're making, pausing before making a decision.
And so, you know this about my work, and what characterizes it is, I'm constantly going around asking questions of kiddos and gathering all the scenarios and case studies that I can, and all the details, and interviewing them really with genuine curiosity to say, help me understand. How is this showing up? What does it look, sound and feel like? What would be really helpful for you to discuss with your peers and other people, adults in particular, caretaking adults? And they'll tell you, and they give it to you straight. And then also talking to the adults who are helping them with this, who are also confronted with the mistakes they're making around it, right?
And as much as the mistakes are important, I always balance and in fact, will tilt in the direction of, wait, there are kids who are doing this in really positive ways. There are kids who are able to self-regulate, who are able to balance. What are their stories? What are their scenarios? Because that's going to have so much more cred than I am when you're talking to kids. And they need to be able to see, feel and hear what it is that we're actually asking them to aspire to, not just what we're telling them to avoid and be careful of.
Debra Wilson: I love that. So I'm hearing almost like a zero entry pool model with the phone, right? Like it's like, you know, like you've got all the brakes on and then like, you know, sort of slowly taking that away, but also like talking with them through real life examples. Like, you know, we talk a lot about, you know, kids being kind or acting with integrity.
I have not heard many conversations, and I haven't had many concrete conversations with my own children about what does that look like online, right?
Shafia Zaloom: Yes.
Debra Wilson: Like it's kind of interesting and we all see a ton of examples of what different behaviors, good and bad, can look like online. And that sort of concrete nature of that ,and what those expectations might be, is really interesting to me.
How much do you think COVID has affected all of this? I mean, when you think back, pre-COVID to now, you know, I mean, that seemed to accelerate a lot of screen time. Right? I mean, that was a very intense window, particularly for the generation we see in our schools right now. How do you think that's come into play here?
Shafia Zaloom: It's a both and. I mean, I think we were both headed in this direction already and we were already seeing sort of an erosion of, you know, social skills and capacities for young people prior to the pandemic. And, and like you said, it accelerated a lot of it because it was a way by which we stayed connected with each other during a time that was unprecedented, which everyone was talking about, right?
Like, and we were just trying to figure out how to be there for each other and how to navigate something that was really challenging and difficult, especially for kids who need community, right? Like who need community, who need social connectedness. They were missing out on recess. Recess is a morality clinic for kids, you know?
And so, you know, there's that piece of it, I think. And then depending on how COVID conscious we were as adults, how we were also trying to create a sense of normalcy and connection, but also navigating risk and where we lived. I mean, geography had a lot to do with it. What kind of school, what sort of resources you had, I mean, all the things, right? So I do think COVID, I think what's important is that as we talk about, you know, digital use, as we talk about screens and everything else, like we can't deny that it was something that really helped us stay connected and helped our kids quote unquote stay in school, right? Like in different ways that were important, but it was also a time of distress. It was really difficult, what we were dealing with.
And so it was helpful in that moment, but now that we, you know, and I think we're still seeing the impact of that unravel in ways we won't know for, or be able to name or identify or deal with for a long time. We're still figuring that out, especially people who work with kids, right, like during that time. And I think it also speaks to something as we continue, as we move out of that, right? Like as we move out of the pandemic and we're trying to create a sense of normalcy and redefine it as it is now and it exists in ways that are going to support kids, is we cannot ignore the awesomeness of it, right?
Like we cannot, for kids, this is a really important piece. I heard this from, he was an LCSW, Jason Brand, who's in the East Bay here in the Bay Area, and I was on a panel with him and he talked about, he specialized in young boys in particular who had compulsive gaming use. This is pre-pandemic. And he said, you have to understand the awesomeness. And I think that's really true. We can't deny the positive things of what technology has afforded us, right? But like with all things, we have to think in terms of adults, adult brains, kids, kid brains, development, all the things, right?
But that for kids in particular, if we want to build credibility with them and be able to access their being receptive, right, to us and the guidance we want to provide, we have to take the time and invest in understanding the awesomeness. And that level of understanding, which I think we'll probably get to at some point, is an act of love. And it's something that more kids need in their lives. And this is a part that's really meaningful and important to them. So we have to show them the love, right? Like, and not the love for it, not the love that says, unconditionally, you can be engaged in this, but to take the time to really see and hear what they are getting from it and what the awesomeness of it is.
Just make sure you have enough time. I remember asking this of my middle kiddo and he was like, yeah, mom, you want to sit down? Like, I'll show you. And the gaming, right? Like, and I didn't realize I was signing up for an hour of being in a video game, by the end I felt like I needed Dramamine, you know, because I was so, something that's, I don't have a tolerance for, but we have to understand what the awesomeness is.
Debra Wilson: So I love that. And I have to say, watching people play video games might be the most boring thing ever. I actually much preferred it in an arcade in the 80s than I do watching it on a big screen in my own house. And now there are so many buttons that …yeah. There's a lot of video gaming that has happened in this house.
So what does that look like? I love the idea of parents or educators understanding that awesomeness. But how do you do that? So you sat down and immersed yourself in gaming. I remember my son and his buddies during the pandemic, they recreated the school through, I don't even remember what program. You know, but they were like, OK, we're not going back to school for a while. Like, let's rebuild the school together. And it was really cool, but also mind-numbingly boring to watch somebody else do it.
So if you're an educator, because I love this, you're sort of talking about an empathy lens, right? Until you're in somebody else's shoes and really understanding the upsides and downsides of what they're experiencing through something like this.
When you think about parents in particular, what do you wish more parents knew either about how to immerse themselves in that or how to talk with their kids? Or even like classroom educators, right? What do you wish like more parents or more educators were engaging in? What would that look like?
Shafia Zaloom: Genuine curiosity without judgment, right? So we all need spaces free of judgment, ultimatums, and assumptions to share with open honesty, right? Like think that's really important and shame in particular, which is what a lot of judgment leads to. And so as adults, taking care of, with our own peers, what we need to work through so that we can be present in a nonjudgmental way.
And to get really curious and ask strategic questions of kids that let them be the experts of their own experience. And I think as you gather that information and get really curious with humility, right, that you'll have insight into a world that allows you to be more empathetic, to build that credibility with kids.
I narrate and recognize the possibilities in terms of the breadth of what's happening in my classroom when it's not just about me teaching. What's on kids' minds, just because it's the nature of being a teenager, right? And that's part of how I frame a class, is to say, I get it, there may be things going down, maybe someone just spilled some tea, and that you're distracted, I appreciate that, and we're going to do the best we can to be present in this moment, because that's what we're committed to as a classroom, right? And here are our values, here's our class constitution, et cetera.
But even just saying that, like I see you, I hear you, I get that's part of your experience and here's how we're going to work with that together, I think is really helpful. And I think the same holds true of all media actually, and I do this in my parenting workshops, is provide parents with sort of when are the moments that you're looking for to embrace where, you know, that are teachable. What is it that you're actually asking? What does this conversation actually look and feel like, right? And how does it organically happen?
And what are the topics that you actually are going to need to initiate a conversation around? And how can you frame it in a way that you might have your kids' attention for two minutes? Right? And I think it's the same for educators and whomever else, is to ask the kids. I tend to, I have this great benefit because I work with kids kindergarten through college, right? Is that I look, I always am asking them to provide their sociological perspective and expertise a couple of years before.
Right? So now that you're at this age and you've made it this far and you're all evolved in these ways, help me understand what was happening two years ago. Cause they'll have the language, they'll have the perspective, they'll have a little added sophistication to be able to articulate and express that in ways that are going to be meaningful. And because then they understand the meaning in a different way with a little more maturity. And so I'm constantly digging and researching and sort of, you know, as well as in addition to formative assessment, like trying to figure out what feels real, what feels relevant so that we can get them ready in ways that feel like… is helpful, right? Like in ways that are going to feel supportive.
Debra Wilson: So how do you use that within the context of the school? Say you have a class of juniors and you're asking them for insights on themselves as freshmen. In the school environment, like how do you use that feedback for what freshmen are experiencing now?
Shafia Zaloom: So part of it is I do a combo. So I'm asking the older kids and it really is a conversation. It's dialoguing. It's showing up at different places on campus. Kids say, hey, and I'm transparent. I'm a big fan of narrating. What are my intentions? What am I looking for? What don't I know that they can help me with? And asking for their kindness and their generosity, their thoughtful generosity.
Then I'll sit down and I'll be like, “Hey, are you, are you all OK with me taking a second of your time?” Sure, Shafia, whatever. You know, this is what I'm working on. And this is what I'm curious about, but I'm not quite getting it right. Help me understand.
And my questions never lead with why. You've already made a judgment if you lead with why. It's always the what, the how, the open ended. Right? And then I go to the freshmen and I say, so this is, this is some of the information I got. Does this feel like it's something that sounds like what you're, you're navigating and what's going on? How are they getting this right? How are they not?
Without revealing names and setting them up to criticize each other, but engaging in a dialogue that helps get a better definition of the issues from all sides. And that's actually, I think, something that we have to model for kids too, especially these days when conversations and values and what we believe in is so polarized, right? And so many kids talk about how so much is shut down that they are left unprepared to have really difficult conversations later, and that they don't have those skills, and that they need them from the adults and that guidance, but adults aren't modeling that for them or teaching them those things. So that's my process.
Debra Wilson: That sounds like a really interesting process, because you're modeling dialogue on a variety of fronts, but also it's a comfort zone because it's their lived experience. So understanding what that feels like.
Shafia Zaloom: It's also teaching in a moment, because asking them to put words to their experience and to actually express it in authentic ways is also modeling through dialogue how, you know, just asking them to say it, to articulate it, to name behaviors and to identify what's happening and to shine light on dynamics is something in and of itself.
Debra Wilson: Right, just that power of oral reflection is huge. So I love that. I want to talk a little bit about relationships because something that I've observed, at least with my own kids, and I've certainly read a lot about it, is that…particularly how dating works now and things like that, and if kids date at all and all of those things.
So let's talk a little bit about healthy relationships. I know in a lot of your work with teens, you tend to focus on two skill sets, the concrete information they need to actually build the healthy relationships and modeling of this relationship. So how can this play out in schools? What does that look like? Whether it's programs and policies, like skill set, like how do you think about that when you're thinking about working with kids?
And when I say relationships, I mean, I think it can be friendships, can be friend groups, it can be romantic, it can be like, just like, what are you thinking? Because that's like that connectedness, right? And it's a deeper level obviously than the digital connection and like the passing through the hallway kind of thing. But tell me a little bit about your thinking behind that.
Shafia Zaloom: And do you have a particular grade in mind that we want to start with? Because I'll start from the very beginning. Because it should start from the very beginning. And self-contained classrooms, there's a tremendous amount of opportunity. And I think what's important is to recognize is that schools are already doing this in really beautiful ways, but we aren't necessarily being explicit and concrete as to how this, then, building a bridge into the realm of relationships, right?
Like, so I think that that's an important piece, because ultimately it's really about how we treat each other. That's what matters, right? And when you think about like, kindergarten through second grade, it's all the F words. It's feelings, friends, potentially fairy tales, fairness, not the F word most people would think of, but you know. Because it's not, it is not that.
But, you know, people are like, they're teaching them intercourse education. No, we're not. That's not what this is about. Right. Like this is about how we treat each other. It's how suddenly the world is open to us and we're realizing, Oh, there's other people in the world and we're going to learn about ourselves as much as we're going to learn about other people by being in relationship with them. How do we do that?
And self-regulation, naming feelings, connecting to them, expressing them, seeing them in other people and being able to reflect that back to them and feeling with them. I mean, these are life skills that are so important that we start scaffolding from a really young age. And I know tons of classrooms in which this is happening really beautifully. An example of how I think about these things would be, OK, here's the information piece that if you have younger kids, you're talking about space bubbles, right? Sort of this imaginary line that we have around ourselves. On the inside of the line, close to us, is what's comfortable, you know, what's comfortable and on the outside, what may not be, like it's a boundary, right? And talking about that. And how does that show up in our lives?
Well, when my dog, I'm feeding my dog, I can't, you know, go up to them because while they're eating, they don't want me to pet them or touch them. And how do they let you know? They might growl. Oh, that's information for you. You're picking up on how they're feeling and you're changing your behavior so that you respect what they need while they're eating, right? Like things like that. And for little kids too, I have them draw in different contexts. This is a piece that I actually think might be missing from some classrooms that could enrich an assignment, right? And sets them up for more of this relationship, because it's everything, conversation as they get older, is context.
Because we talk about the space bubble assuming that the space bubble is the same size wherever they are. And that's actually not true, right? So let's draw the space bubble in at the shopping, at the market, at home, and at school. And you'll see, and then they can do a gallery walk. And what do they notice? Space bubbles are different sizes. They either get bigger or smaller depending on where you are. Oh! Context. Right? Introducing that concept.
And then how do we know where someone's space bubble is? How do we pay attention? How do we ask? What are the words for that? And then trying on that language and those words. Actually saying it, right? Like, well, what did it feel like in that moment to hear someone say to you, no? What did it feel like to hear a yes? And connecting with those feelings, putting words to them, you know, those are the sorts of things that I think about.
Of course, always the information, increasing that, that self-regulation, naming feelings, being able to express them, how we treat each other. It's interesting. And this is a little plug that I hope teachers of younger kids will think about transitioning, which is like third, fourth, fifth grade. You know, we use, treat others how you want to be treated, this empathy frame, right? To help them understand that concept when it comes to respect. We take an empathetic role because we have to start with self because they're such narcissistic little creatures, right? We're self-focused. And we don't then explicitly create a shift in what respect means as kids get older.
I'll have a classroom of a hundred 18-year-olds about to go to college. And I'll say, how many have been taught to respect yourselves and others like your whole life? Every hand goes up. And I'll say, OK, who can give me a definition? Every hand goes down. And they default to the golden rule. Treat others how you'd want to be treated. But if I'm a touchy feely person and I'm going through the world thinking everyone else is touchy feely too, am I honoring their right to consent? No, because as we get older, come out of the elementary grades and into the middle school grades, respect means treating people how they want to be treated. And how would you actually know that? You have to pay attention and listen. You have to ask. And so it's the platinum rule, right? That changes. And I think we need to be—
Debra Wilson: —I've never heard that before, the platinum rule.
Shafia Zaloom: Yeah, yeah, you got to level up.
And I think that that's really true. We do all this very intentional work in self-contained classrooms in the elementary years. We have peace processes. We have the ways by which we mediate with talking objects and everything, conflict. And then somehow that starts to get lost as they get older. And we make this assumption that they're going to make those concrete shifts, right, into different contexts of how we treat each other. And I don't think that happens enough because we start to focus more on context. I mean, sorry, content, versus context and relationships and everything else.
And if we do, it's siloed, right? Like it's essentialized and it's in this one class.
Debra Wilson: It's really, I love that, the platinum rule. There are a lot of cues to that, right? Like what other people are comfortable with and if you can read those cues and if you can pick up on those kinds of cues and…
Shafia Zaloom: Yeah, being attuned, being attuned to someone else. And the platinum rule is not mine, that's a guy. There's a guy, I forget what his name is, but he came up with it.
Debra Wilson: So I know you're working on a new book. Your first book, Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between, came out about five years ago, and I know it was very much grounded in that moment. Tell me about the new book and how it's informed by where we are today.
Shafia Zaloom: The new book. Sex, Teens, and Everything in Between was, I mean, it was right before the pandemic, right? And it was trade publishing, which is different. This new book is academic. It's from an academic press. And it's for teachers, educators, administrators, and policymakers. I've been doing a lot more teacher education these days and sort of focusing my attention, my consulting on that. Teaching graduate students and, and the like.
What I realized is that teachers need tremendous guidance. There's so much now at this point, we've evolved. There's all these curricula out there for health classes, for healthy sexuality, relationship education, you know, all the things. And so you can adopt one of these curriculums. You can buy it. You can get some for free. Like there's all kinds of ways people are teaching this stuff, especially in independent schools.
However, we are socializing young people, when it comes to gender and sexuality, healthy sexuality or not healthy sexuality, all the time, all the time, especially in the in-betweens. So as I started to teach more graduate students in graduate schools of education, realizing that they needed guidance, one, because they didn't have sex education modeled for them themselves. If they did, it was like a couple days of puberty education years and years ago. It was really clinical or it was very fear and avoidance, shame based.
Every now and again, you get someone who may have had a sex positive sex education, simply, you know, comprehensive sexuality education, which simply means we don't stigmatize sexuality. It's what you do with it that matters. And there's conversation about that. And that they needed their own education and that because this stuff was coming up outside of the classroom, and we know this, right? It's happening everywhere, typically during transition.
So like the in-betweens, it's happening when your kids are walking in a line and waiting outside the gym to go to P.E. It's happening when they're waiting in line to wash their hands before they go to the lunchroom. It's happening during recess when there's, you know, a random game of tag going on and it's girls up against boys. It's the kid who's running around the play yard saying, what you got, penis or vagina? You know, like whatever it is.
It's happening in the in-betweens, and it's people who aren't trained to teach this in a classroom necessarily. It's not the school counselors who are in their office doing one-to-one support. And so the book is about that. I spent the last year interviewing teachers across the country, because part of my point is that this comes up no matter what state you're in. It's happening in all schools, in all of those in between educational spaces that aren't necessarily a contained classroom.
Or it's the math teacher who's trying to settle their class and you got a kid at the end of class who throws out some sort of a homophobic insult or slur and everybody hears it. What do you say? What do you do? What's the language? So it's really about that. It's grounded in these case studies. I think I have...probably 35 or 40 of the 50 states represented with the scenarios, the case studies. And the point of it is to just support teachers in how to talk about this stuff in the in-betweens, and how to teach and respond from a place of care, love, and affirmation versus fear and shame. Cause of how a lot of us in our own education and socialization is, has been stigmatized and lacking in this way.
And then also to, how to talk about it without talking about it, because there's so much more surveillance. So, how to actually have these conversations without, I would say triggering, right? Like issues that then distract from serving kids and giving them what they need and the information and modeling and teaching that they need, versus adults and their politics, how to actually navigate that tension.
Debra Wilson: That's a big tension for teachers to navigate right now, all over the map. So you mentioned finally you work with graduate students. What would you highlight about those graduate students that you teach? What are they currently thinking and feeling about as they work towards making an impact in education?
Shafia Zaloom: They are drawn to the class because they feel like this is something that they're not getting professional development in. This is not something that anyone's talking to them about, and they don't know how to handle it. They know what they want the outcome to be, that they want to have a healthy relationship with their students with clear boundaries, but to also provide information about the stuff that no one's talking to them about that they know they need support with. And the thing they talk about the most, they always talk about how they're so distracted by pedagogical approaches, content, all the things that I'm trying to provide for them because they never got the sex education themselves. And they're like, and I've had graduate students ask and request additional workshops on, we need the sex education that we never got. How can we be expected to guide our students in positive ways around this stuff if we never had that education ourselves, and no one's giving us any sort of professional development around it?
And so what we now do is I always like, OK, here's the learning for you, here's the modeling. And it's so interesting, I've had to shift the class a lot to just model some of the teaching that I do, because they never got it themselves. And so it's like they're taking the class, albeit a bit delayed, right? Like in their own development so that they can then acquire the language and everything else and have context with which to understand how to do more direct teaching around this stuff.
Debra Wilson: Excellent. Shafia, thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate the time and I always appreciate getting to catch up. So thank you so much.
Shafia Zaloom: Thank you, thank you for your interest. Super fun.